Entropy increases on increasing temperature
entropy of a liquid is geneeally greater than solid
But in case egg,on increasing temperature it solidify,the reason is helical conformation of protein is changed to pleated sheet,which has more extensive hydrogen bonding and increases the melting point
But what actually happens to entropy,does it decreases on increasing temperature?
actually it was a question of science quest,but I did not get any satisfactory answer till now,I hope my doubt will clear now

How are you under the misconception that no process in which entropy decreases is not possible according to the Second Law of thermodynamics? Read your physical chemistry textbook a bit more carefully and then think about your above question, i am sure you will be able to answer it yourself

A very good question indeed! First, note that an omelette will not turn into an egg spontaneously (or in any other way known to man), but it is equally true that an egg will not spontaneously turn into an omelette. So it is not at all clear what the sign of difference of entropy is between these two states. Now recall that given two states, having equal energies, the system will go from one to the other only if the entropy is larger there. Now let us recall the known facts. An egg remains in its state without any tendency to turn into an omelette. One reason could be that the transformation involves intermediate states that have a greater energy than is available at low temperatures (potential barrier). When we heat the egg, at a certain temperature we reach the peak of the barrier, and now the system can either go back to the original state or become an omelette. It must do one over the other if there is an increase in entropy (if the two states are at the same internal energy) or the internal energy contained in an omelette is smaller (systems try to reduce their internal energy). However, in the second case, if the egg turns into an omelette then the residual internal energy will be turned into entropy of the surroundings, so the net effect is an overall increase in entropy of the universe. Our argument suggests that the entropy of an omelette might be greater than that of the original egg, given that it has nearly the same internal energy as egg. You might wonder where this extra entropy comes from. Part of the answer is given in the statement of the problem.There is a change in entropy associated with a conformational deformation. Basically, for long polymer chains a given topology allows certain conformations that have identical energies. If the number of states is greater in a given topology then entropy is larger. So if the planar topology allows for more states than the helical one then an omelette might have larger entropy than an egg. But another statement mentioned in the problem suggests otherwise. It says that the melting temperature increases. This suggests that the internal energy in the omelette state might indeed be smaller. Intuition tells me that a thread like state should have a larger number of possible states than a plane or a three dimesional continuum, so the balance of arguments suggest that entropy of the omelette could indeed be smaller than in the egg state. But, to reiterate, this does not mean that the entropy of the universe has become smaller. Part of the internal energy would have turned irreversibly into heat.

PS: This is not a definitive answer to the question and I have my doubts. I wonder if a physical chemist can provide a more authoritative answer to the question whether an omelette contains more or less entropy than an uncooked egg at the same temperature.

Very true indeed! That is why a physical chemist would not consider Entropy changes independent of Enthalpy changes. S/he would consider Gibbs free energy change instead. For a process to proceed in a particular direction Gibbs free energy change must be negative

The Gibbs Free Energy change can be expressed as:


So the solidification of egg proteins would occur only if either the Enthalpy change is negative, that is, the process is exothermic, or if the Entropy change is positive, that is, the entropy of the closed system as whole increases

It is certainly true that for chemists' Gibbs potential is more useful, since most reactions take place under isobaric conditions, thus, under isobaric conditions, reactions naturally tend to decrease the Gibbs potential. However, that does not not illuminate the original question. Does an omelette have a larger or smaller entropy? This is what I can't figure out from the given data. But then why was the question asked in Quest? I thought the questions should be self contained?

Haven't you heard of the art of obfusication. I think that is the reason We all know, the education system of which most of the participant of Quest are a product of. So a bit of obfusication can help seperate the grains from chaff

Art of obfuscation I have always used this expression negatively so I find it strange that you seem to think of it as a potent tool I have myself participated in the Quest and I found the students to be usually pretty good.

If I am reading the question correctly, I think what is being asked is the relative entropy between an egg and an omelette, and I cannot see how to obtain it from the statement of the problem since the process is not just of solidification but of conformational deformation. In crystalline solids I can imagine that there might be some sort of theorem that says that solids have a lower entropy. But I don't know what it means in the case of an omelette, which will burn if we heat it more -- or does it melt? But then why does the question mention that the melting point increases? I have never seen an omelette melt on heating, only getting burnt. But then wax too is not crystalline but it does have a melting point. See, I have reached the limits of my physical chemistry, now I need help

Read the question again!



It talks of egg's solidification on increasing temperature and Entropy implication. How does that occur and the conformational changes in egg proteins at higher temperatures is an aside.

What hallenrm forgot to mention was the fact, that free energy change rule is for a close system. What can be a close system for this transformation. It must include the heat source, say a stove to heat the egg, whether in a frying pan or in a pan of boiling water. In either of these cases heat is produced in an exothermic chemical reaction, that is also accompanied by an increase in entropy. Thus, the total free energy change of this closed system would be negative, even if the entropy of the egg proteins decreases on solidification.

In my opinion that is the twist which the question setter might have in mind, since it asks "what actually happens to entropy,does it decreases on increasing temperature?" Not, the Entropy change of egg alone in the process of its solidification

Oh, let's stop beating about the bush! If you wish we can forget about the original question. So now, what is the answer to the question: does an egg or an omelette have greater entropy (all other things being equal)?

On the basis of my research on the Internet, all i can say, is that ab initio there is nodefinitive answer.

But, my intution say that the omlette should have greater entropy

I remembered the word obfuscation from an article entitled Creative Obfuscation I read in the ChemTech magazine (A ACS publication) some 30 years ago in IITK library. It can be a very potent tool as per the following quote:



Source: http://public.lanl.gov/kmh/pc-25-30-armstrong.pdf an article published in the IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON PROFESSIONAL COMMUNICATION, VOL. PC-25, NO. 1, MARCH 1982

Interesting discussion indeed. I would just like to comment on the following point:



The transformation from a native egg to a cooked solidified egg does not occur at a particular temperature, so the above mentioned equation is rather inadequate, the more appropiate equation in thi case would be



Where, the natural variables of G are then p, T, and {Ni}. Because some of the natural variables are intensive, dG may not be integrated using Euler integrals as is the case with internal energy.

What are these Euler integrals? I have been constantly talking about omelette, while looking back at the first post I realized that it was about boiled eggs. During incubation an egg breathes through the shell, so the final product has more material than what it started with. During boiling, I don't know if dNs are kept constant or if they change. I guess an omelette too is more than the egg material since cooking takes place in open air, though, as I mentioned already, I am not that sure about a boiled egg.

Please see;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_integrals



An egg is a mixture of several chemical substances, ehich include lipids like chelesterol and lecithin besides several proteins and vitamins. During cooking these substances can undergo some chemical transformations, and possibly some chemical reactions among them. For example, the proteins undergo a chemical process known denaturation.

Further after incubation when an egg hetches to produc a chicken, the live chicken obviously has less entropy then the egg from which it is hatched simply because it is alive. A boiled egg on the other hand, since it has no potential to produce a living being must be in lesser ordered state! That's my reasoning to assert that a boiled egg has more entropy then an unboiled native egg

I'm a bit puzzled by this discussion, which seems to address whether the solidification of egg protein is spontaneous or not.

I thought the question was simply whether the boiled egg has higher entropy than the uncooked egg. Isn't that the question? If it is, the answer as I see it has to be yes.

In an exothermic reaction it may not be so; processes tend to minimize free energy and it can be minimized either through a decrease in the internal energy or an increase in the entropy. The entropy of the universe is, of course, increased, since the internal energy has got converted into less useful forms, however, it is not at all obvious that the entropy of the cooked egg is greater than that of the uncooked egg.